So getting out of legalism isn't an easy out, is it??? Anyone have any thoughts about the way out???
I agree with what everyone has said! I recently read The Naked Gospel by Andrew Farley and I know some of you guys have also read it. The whole book addresses this issue of legalism in depth and the culminating sentence for me was:
Understanding that the Law has NO place in the life of a Christian keeps us from the error of legalism.
We think it has a place and its hard to wrap our heads around "NO place" at all.
This morning I read 2 Corinthians 3: 15-18 in The Message and it really ties this together:
Even today when the proclamations of that old, bankrupt government (The Law) are read out, they (the Children of Israel) can't see through it. Only Christ can get rid of the veil so they can see for themselves that theres nothing there. Whenever, though, they turn to face God as Moses did, God removes the veil and there they are—face-to-face! They suddenly recognize that God is a living, personal presence, not a piece of chiseled stone. And when God is personally present, a living Spirit, that old, constricting legislation is recognized as obsolete. We're free of it! All of us! Nothing between us and God, our faces shining with the brightness of his face. And so we are transfigured much like the Messiah, our lives gradually becoming brighter and more beautiful as God enters our lives and we become like him.
Now there's the way out! Only Christ can get rid of the veil so we can see that the law doesn't apply to us anymore; its fading away. And when we turn to face God, He enters with His living personal presence and we are gradually transfigured. Wow and Amen!
Sara, straight to the point and great scripture! Here's a few quotes from stuff I was reading…
It would be good to underline the danger of constant condemnation through the law, of which warning is given in Romans 8:1. It is probably the most prevalent cause of unhappiness and ineffectiveness among God's people. If the thunders of the law have ceased to terrify us through the peace of justification, the pointing finger of the law at our daily shortcomings is a constant discomfort. Norman Grubb, The Deep Things of God
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh. Romans 8:1-3 (NRSV)
God went for the jugular when he sent his own Son. He didn't deal with the problem as something remote and unimportant. In his Son, Jesus, he personally took on the human condition, entered the disordered mess of struggling humanity in order to set it right once and for all. The law code, weakened as it always was by fractured human nature, could never have done that. The law always ended up being used as a Band-Aid on sin instead of a deep healing of it. And now what the law code asked for but we couldn't deliver is accomplished as we, instead of redoubling our own efforts, simply embrace what the Spirit is doing in us. Those who think they can do it on their own end up obsessed with measuring their own moral muscle but never get around to exercising it in real life. Those who trust God's action in them find that God's Spirit is in them—living and breathing God! Obsession with self in these matters is a dead end; attention to God leads us out into the open, into a spacious, free life. Romans 8:3-6 The Message
Hey guys… I posted this in reply to Julie in the MIM class forum, but since the topic is legalism, I wanted to post it here also. This is just an update of where I'm at with my church.
Although I'm sorry that you're experiencing the same troubles, Julie, it is comforting to know that I'm not the only one who feels this way. It helps to talk it out with like-minded Christians. The church I belong to has gone through two really devastating splits in the last 10 years (this was prior to our joining.) Sadly, the church has a reputation for their troubles…but I believe that the congregation is partly to blame for that, because they won't "let it go." They harbor the past and it's hard to move past things when it's the topic of conversation all the time. Like I said, we weren't even around for all of the drama, but we feel like we were because everyone's "filled us in". Of course, everyone has a different version of exactly what happened, but we get the gist of it…whether we wanted to know or not. There is so much hurt and distrust amongst the long standing members. I guess I can empathize with that…I mean when you've been hurt badly twice in a row, then you're bound to put in some strongholds.
The good news is that the Lord is in this church. He has sent along a vibrant new staff. All of the pastoral staff (Head, Youth, and Music) are under 38, and then our associate pastor is a little older (50ish). And I feel like they have a good vision of how to bring the church into the modern day, without straying from the Bible and offending the older members. But even still, some of their views are a bit legalistic, in m opinion. But the music is a nice mix of contemporary and traditional hymns (although it took a 2 – 2 hour business meetings to approve the drum set…lol) The youth is very mission oriented (they are involved in World Changers, Centrifuge, and are going to Macedonia this summer.) And we have an average of 3 to 4 new families a month (families our age) joining per month. Finances have recovered and flourished. God has been good and faithful to restore this church.
It's really hard for me to sit back and watch them begin to turn the gun on themselves again and stay quiet. And for women to speak up in the church is a no-no…unless it's done at a business meeting under the official capacity of my "title".
Every new Bible study has to be read and approved by the Associate Pastor to make sure it is in line with the SBC doctrine…and then it has to be voted on by the Deacons if the author of the study is not a member of the SBC convention. Some Beth Moore's are OK, but if they date after the whole "I can teach men" fiasco (which I believe her comments were taken out of context), then it can't be approved.
…and you know, I don't care if there is Beth Moore or not. I've enjoyed her studies and have been blessed by them, but she's not my favorite and I can take it or leave it. But when we have 45 women attending the Beth Moore study and then attendance drops to 12 or less for their "beloved" Focus on the Family studies…it might be time to rethink. It's not about numbers of course, but you do want to try and meet the needs of the majority of your people. …and the church let's Precepts use the facility on Wednesday mornings. Kay Arthur also teaches to men. So, which is it? It's just really frustrating as the Women's director to have women come up and request certain studies and have to tell them the reasons why we can't do them, when I think the reasons are legalism. …But at the same time, I understand that God has placed me in the position and I'm to yield to those that He's placed in authority over me.
I'm praying about becoming a Visionkeeper. I was asked back in Okinawa and I just didn't feel that it was my calling…but now I believe that it might be time to at least consider it…pray about it. But when I think about introducing something like this to a group like that, I have visions of being burned at the stake right there in the courtyard. Now, I do believe that there are a few women in the church that would be receptive and would greatly benefit from this…but I don't want to have to keep secrets and meet at the secret clubhouse to have a Bible study…"knock three times and whistle the Battle Hymn Republic backwards and we'll open the door! " Of course the direction our country is headed, we might just have to resort to that.
…I wanted to offer Priscilla Shirer He Speaks to Me. I mean what could be better than getting women to realize that God speaks to us? …but I was immediately shut down because her father is Tony Evans. They didn't bother to even read the book. I think they are afraid God will speak to them and realize that freedom in Christ means just that, freedom!
…I don't know. Their hearts are probably in the right place and we live out the values we grew up with, until something or someone or hopefully The Someone shows us truth and we start living it. I just haven't fully figured out what my role is in all of this. I know it's to restore the women's ministry (I guess this was the last thing on the list as the church was rebuilding), and to try and be a good godly-example of a Christian woman, and to listen to the women when they need to talk and pray with them. Beyond that, I only know that God has told me to be "an instrument of change." I don't know if that means he wants me to be Sarah Palin-like and Go Rogue…or just do as I'm told and follow the rules…or somewhere in between. I suspect it's the latter, but I can't seem to figure out what that looks like.
OK, so sorry to ramble on like this. It truly helps to type out my frustrations, but I also don't want you all to think that my church going experience is horrible and dreaded. Our family loves being apart of that family and the people for the most part are kind and loving…would drop everything and come to our aide, if we needed it. We have good fellowship and the Bible studies (however few in attendance) have been wonderful journey and growing experiences. There are just a few thorns in the bush and I seem to keep getting snagged and pricked.
Anyway, thanks for reading and praying and just being here and who you are. And Julie, I will be praying for you in this same situation.
Much love…
B-Marie
P.S. Apparently 8+7 does not equal 17, but 15! Who knew?
You’ll never know Christ is all you need, until Christ is all you got!
…I don't know. Their hearts are probably in the right place
I'd like to rephrase that. Their hearts definitely are not in the right place, but I believe that they think they are doing right by God and the Church based on what they've been taught. I'm sure that they are not trying to be dictatorial for the sake of being so. Does that make better sense?
You’ll never know Christ is all you need, until Christ is all you got!
I am re-posting this from my Miracle in the Mirror study, since it has to do with Casme – the antidote to legalism! Thank you all for all the great food for thought that has been posted here in this forum!
MIM S2D4
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your reasonable act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing, and perfect will. ROMANS 12:1-2 (NIV)
According to this scripture, what would a reasonable act of worship look like in your life? It looks like: "And now what the law code asked for but we couldn't deliver is accomplished as we, instead of redoubling our own efforts, simply embrace what the Spirit is doing in us. Those who think they can do it on their own end up obsessed with measuring their own moral muscle but never get around to exercising it in real life. Those who trust God's action in them find that God's Spirit is in them—living and breathing God! Obsession with self in these matters is a dead end; attention to God leads us out into the open, into a spacious, free life." Romans 8:3-6 The Message
Also: "when God is personally present, a living Spirit, that old, constricting legislation is recognized as obsolete. We're free of it! All of us! Nothing between us and God, our faces shining with the brightness of his face. And so we are transfigured much like the Messiah, our lives gradually becoming brighter and more beautiful as God enters our lives and we become like him." 2 Cor 2:17-18 TM
How would it affect the way you interact with the world? It would be Jesus in me as me interacting with the world. I wouldn’t care what others thought. I would consider only His desires. It would be a flowing, a resting, a yielding, releasing, joyful, peaceful, purposeful, loving, kind, patient, etc!!
Lord, I never saw before that presenting my body as a living sacrifice would involve ceasing from my own efforts to fix myself, and relying solely on you to change and transform me. I guess before I thought I was the one who was supposed to renew my mind. So we’re back to me showing up again, being available. At work I need to give them my availability, but with You I want to be available 24/7! Teach me your ways, O God! Renew my mind! Show me how to cooperate with what you are doing. I don’t want to resist in any way!
Beloved Georgia, it’s a mind set to obey that I’m after. As you know Me and learn of me, you will know My love and you will be consumed. You will want what I want! My desires will be yours, and your desires will be from me. The separation will be gone.
As long as you think of Me outside of and separated from you, you’re in the illusion of a separate self. But as you abide in Me and I abide in you, you come to the realization that we are not separated. You are in Me and I am in you. As you recognize and yield and show up, you see more and more clearly.
So then, all I need to do is practice your presence?
Yes, Beloved, you practice with intent. Gaze at Me. Think of me. Worship and make melody in your heart. Enjoy my presence! Troubles can’t get you down when you’re buoyed up in Me! My buoyancy is far far greater than the weight of any earthly troubles. You are free, Beloved! Free from the confines that sin and death have imposed on this world. That longing that you have to "get outta here" can be fulfilled now, here on this earth. Rise above, Beloved. Soar on my wings of love. Release all concerns to me and fly free, My Beloved. Let the painful things press you into me! Remember how you said you would stay even if it killed you. [A reference to previous trials.] You chose to "bear up under" those trials. Well, it didn’t kill you – it made you better – more like me! Not from the outside (the separated way), but on the inside (the abiding way). You pressed into me and trusted me and received that part of transformation. You are becoming, My Beloved! Be who you are – your true self!
But whoever did want him, who believed he was who he claimed and would do what he said, He made to be their true selves, their child-of-God selves. JOHN 1:12 TM
I enjoyed reading your post. Sometimes The Message can really hit the nail on the head! Redoubling our own efforts will certainly prove our need to simply embrace what the Spirit is doing in us. Those who think they can do it on their own end up obsessed with measuring their own moral muscle but never get around to exercising it in real life. Yes, I'd much rather trust God's action in me!
I love your thought process here:
Lord, I never saw before that presenting my body as a living sacrifice would involve ceasing from my own efforts to fix myself, and relying solely on you to change and transform me. I guess before I thought I was the one who was supposed to renew my mind. So we’re back to me showing up again, being available.
I love it! Showing up and being available is about all we can handle – and even then He is the impetus! He does it all and I do nothing…until I am prepared for action…then it will seem as though I do it all. Choice, action, and change are all irresistible. They are the natural response to His inner work; each surfaces as the obvious next step to that which He’s been perfecting in me. I take the step…but His internal engineering makes the step too unavoidable to call it my own or to take credit for it.
Isn't paradox glorious?! An unwillingness to explore and embrace a paradox is the cause and perpetuation of argumentative reasonings. The willingness to embrace that same paradox will silence all dissension and bring unity and agreement. Paradox is one way of humbling us and reminding us that we do not fully comprehend Him or His ways. He will not be "formulized" and some things will remain beyond our grasp.
I like this part of your journal:
Remember how you said you would stay even if it killed you. [A reference to previous trials.] You chose to "bear up under" those trials. Well, it didn’t kill you – it made you better – more like me! Not from the outside (the separated way), but on the inside (the abiding way). You pressed into me and trusted me and received that part of transformation. You are becoming, My Beloved! Be who you are – your true self!
I just relate to this. It is wonderful to be able to hear God's voice with such clarity that you know when He is asking you to stay when you'd rather leave or to leave when you'd rather stay. Bearing up under this pressure really does conform us to His image. "Not from the outside (separated way) but from the inside (abiding way)! That is excellent! Love it!
An unwillingness to explore and embrace a paradox is the cause and perpetuation of argumentative reasonings. The willingness to embrace that same paradox will silence all dissension and bring unity and agreement.
Now THAT is going straight into my book of quotes! Very well said!
I have a question. I've been perusing the forums this morning…going back and reading Casme forum from the beginning. (It still enlightens- still my favorite ) I wonder how it would tie it into (show us a seamless unity) regarding this subject.
In light of "Casme" what "good" would you say has come from being surrounded, entrenched, confused or befuddled with legalism or legalistic Christianity?
Casme,
Jaque
Living 'loved' by keeping myself in His love… Jude 21
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