Hi guys, [get yourself some coffee and a snack...might be a long one]
Sara pointed me to this conversation because I have been a victim of this exact thing recently at my church. I am the women's ministry director. This church has gone through 2 very painful splits in the past decade or so (this is prior to my joining.) …And while God has blessed the church with a new young ministerial [is that a word? ] staff, who are focused on mending this church for the purpose of getting outside the doors and winning souls…there are still quite a few of the older traditional folks still around. They are precious people, whom I have dearly fallen in love with. But they stand firm in some of their legalistic ways. I have grace for them because I grew up in a church like that and we live out what we know. By the grace of God through deep Bible study and of course, Visionwriting, I have been blessed with the knowledge [wisdom] that JIM and I can have a daily dialogue and through that He has taught me so much about grace. What it is, what it's for, how to receive it, and how to give it. With a faith that my sins have truly been put to death, I am learning what a relationship with God truly is and can be. Praise God!
Y'all may or may not have read the situation that I posted in another forum…but I'll quickly recap. There is this one woman…and to be honest, she's never really been one of my favorite people. There was just something about her that made my Holy Spirit Radar ping a little. Still, we had a respectful cordial relationship. She is the Sunday School director for the kids and I have a kid in Sunday School, so naturally we interact. Anyway, as I said, the church is still rebuilding after some unfortunate situations and while the youth ministry and local missions ministry and the Keenager's minstry, ect…all were starting to thrive again, the women's ministry kind of got left in the dust. Mainly because no one would step up and take the reigns. Being aware of my PWOC experience, I was asked to consider it…and after prayer, I felt like I should do it. The women there were desperately starving for fellowship. So, I first got a discipleship class started and then began to plan some activities and programs. God gave me some direction and out of that came a new name [FAITHFUL based on Rev. 17:14] and we got a logo and the whole shabang. Things are going really well and I think the Lord is pleased.
Well, recently, I posted some pictures on Facebook from a trip I took with my husband to D.C. He was named the Top Superintendant of the Air Force and was there to receive his award. My husband works very very hard and I am so proud of him. He's a cancer survivor and because he has not been cleared to deploy, he has had to work 10 times as hard as most other people, so he can prove his worth in the military. It's sad, but if you can't pull your weight, then your useless to the military and you're outta there! Anyway, he really earned the award and I was very proud to be there with him. [Pardon the interrpution from the point, so I could gush over my hubby! ]
In one of the pictures, my husband is holding a beer and I had a ginger ale, served in a typical bar glass. We have never been convicted that having alcohol is a sin. There is no scripture that backs that way of thinking. We do understand that the Bible preaches against drunkeness, but not drinking. We incorporate alcohol into our lives very responsibly…we don't get drunk, we don't drink and drive, we don't pressure others to drink if they don't want to, ect… We feel like we are very much within the confines of scripture when we choose to drink. Now, again, I only had ginger ale, because I can not have a lot of alcoholic beverages, having had gastric bypass…but I do have an occassional sip of wine.
So, the aforementioned woman saw the picture and went ballistic. She called me out of my Bible study class and read me the riot act. She brought the picture to the attention to the staff and others and just turned it into WW3. Most of the people in my church have been very supportive and have backed me up. I've even been surprised by a few people, whom I thought would take her point of view, that have come up and encouraged me. The pastoral staff have backed me up…and so everything is good with my position. Not that it was about keeping a title…I can certainly serve without being in charge…but I didn't like the idea of being removed for someone's legalistic spin on things.
I was first shocked at how it all came down. Then I was hurt. Then I was angry. Very angry, if I'm honest. I had to confess a lot sins of the mind to the Lord and ask Him once again to clean my heart. After a few days of talking to God, I can say that I am at a place to forgive her. She hasn't offered an apology, but I don't need one. It's over with and I've learned the consequence of withholding grace…so that's a good thing.
My issue is that my anger has been replaced with indifference. It's really hard to come to restoration of a loving relationship, when I realize that it was never really that to begin with. I do forgive her (and again, have grace for her legalism because that's the way she was brought up and hasn't learned differently.) I am well aware that Satan is outside just waiting to take a seat in the sanctuary, and I don't want to be the one who holds the door open for him.
…but honestly, I really don't care what she thinks. Out of all the people in the church that I respect and would consider their approval to be a good thing, she doesn't make the list. Part of that comes from my life lessons of learning to live to please the Living God, instead of man (Romans 12:2)…but I have a feeling God is wanting me to go to a higher level with her and I just can't find my way there. I know how I'm supposed to feel, act, love…but I can't get there. Trying to work through this with God.
I'm very sorry to dump all of this. I felt this might be a safe place to rant a little and to seek some good counsel from those who have experienced simular situations and have grown up to be better than I am being right now. Thanks for e-listening and any replies you might have to offer…whether it beadvice, empathy, or even rebuke [...just be gentle. I'm a fragile cistern with newly aquired cracks! Can't you just picture the Potter with my mess of clay in His hands? ...Oy! She is just so stubborn!!! ...of course, I know and am thankful that He handles me with Tender Loving Care. no matter how messy I get!]
Much love!
B
Now, 11+7=???
You’ll never know Christ is all you need, until Christ is all you got!
Hey Belinda-Marie! Thanks for your post. You are a gifted writer.
One point I want to mention is that trust is different than forgiveness. And having healthy boundaries in place is a good thing. If you ride with someone in a car and they drive 80mph and crash and your leg is broken, you can forgive them, but you might not want to ride with them again.
Now I have a question: How are you "supposed to feel, act, love…" toward this person? Is not caring what she thinks of you wrong? It seems to me that appropriate boundaries would be good to have in place with a person whom you have known to judge you.
The idea of "…All the people in the church that I respect and would consider their approval to be a good thing" is causing me to wonder, when is it a good thing to consider someone’s approval good? Should we ever care what someone thinks of us? I know I want my friends to like me and approve of me. Is that a Godly desire?
Also, I think it would be really good to guard your heart against making any judgments against her for judging you, and even to pray for her and bless her and invest into her life with God’s love. Sometimes we have to forgive over and over as we continue to reap what others have sowed. Jacque and Susan have both written outstanding discourses on forgiveness in the responses to the blog "You Can See Me."
May the Lord give you His perspective in this situation!
The idea of "…All the people in the church that I respect and would consider their approval to be a good thing" is causing me to wonder, when is it a good thing to consider someone’s approval good? Should we ever care what someone thinks of us? I know I want my friends to like me and approve of me. Is that a Godly desire?
It's not that I seek their approval. Maybe that was a wrong choice of word. I would never compromise who I am in Christ to please any man. …but at the same time, I was chosen to represent/administer the women in my church, and I would want them to be pleased with their choice. I want to do a good job in any task that I take on. I told my Pastor that if the church felt that this particular photo compromised their faith in me or they felt that it was not representitive of their church's mission statement, that I would gladly step down with no hard feelings…but I was not willing to "change" to fit their needs. He felt that there was nothing I did that compromised their ideals. Does that make sense? I confuse myself sometimes.
I can't recall the verse just now, but Paul tells us that when we work, work as if we are working for Christ…or something to that affect. [I mean really! What a different world we would live in if the chick at Burger King drive-thru would assemble my order as if Jesus were in the car outside the window! Extra pickles would be more than 2 pickles, I'll bet! ...and there would always be a straw and napkin in the bag! Can I get an Amen?]
Now I have a question: How are you "supposed to feel, act, love…" toward this person? Is not caring what she thinks of you wrong? It seems to me that appropriate boundaries would be good to have in place with a person whom you have known to judge you.
I don't know. This is where I'm conflicted. God has forgiven my sins and has removed them as far as the East is from the West. He chooses never to recall and hold them over my head. I don't think I'll ever pull this out and hold it over her head [or if I'm ever tempted to, I pray that JIM will rise up in me and shut my mouth!!!]…but it will always be in the back of my head when I'm interacting with her. I know that I need to pray for her…and I have…but I need to really spend some quality time and make sure my heart is pure when I'm praying.
However, you're illustration about the wreckless driver rings very true. I see what you're saying. I will do some more praying on this…and for sure go and read Jaque's and Susan's blog posts. I glean so much from the people in this class! Thank you for talking through this with me!
B
You’ll never know Christ is all you need, until Christ is all you got!
Belinda-Marie, I think the scripture you are referring to is this:
Col 3:23-24 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.
So then you want to bring glory to God by what you do at church or anywhere else. This makes me think of another scripture:
Rom 14:17-18 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
This scripture brought an "aha" moment to me when I was struggling with trying to live up to someone else’s expectations of me. I realized that my part was to serve Christ by living in His righteousness, peace and joy, and then I would be pleasing to Him and He would see that I was approved by men. So I realized that people who love God will approve of me, and those who are His enemies will not, but I could leave it up to Him.
So I think this answers my question about is it Godly to want to please and be approved by my friends. As I seek to please God, my friends who love Him will approve of me!
I love talking things out like this! My friends and I call it verbal processing!
B-Marie, just so you know it’s easy to love and be gentle with you in this matter. I can’t help but view this incident from another perspective and would like to share a little of it with you. Let’s look at this from a "God’s Intent" point of view:
Since God means and uses everything for good, and since "to the pure all things are pure", then using this situation and the tirade this woman had because of some picture she saw (assuming) you were drinking (whether she agrees with drinking or not has nothing to do with it), I see that she merely "triggered" something to highlight a current inner condition, the purpose of which is for your growth.
What did she (unknowingly of course) highlight? Anger. Indifference. Stubbornness. Etc. Hey, this is very good, because it will surely drive you right back into the Lords arms! ("No weapon formed against you can prosper." "Everything works for good for those who love God and are called according to HIS purpose.")
The beauty of Christ in us is that He IS our life. What does that mean? B-Marie says, "but I have a feeling God is wanting me to go to a higher level with her and I just can't find my way there. I know how I'm supposed to feel, act, love…but I can't get there." No, you can’t, for you, left to you own means are not supposed to get there. You’re beautifully human and meant to be so! Nevertheless, Christ who is your life will do it!
This means we can "really rejoice" when trials come our way, for that’s when we exclaim, "Hey, here’s yet another wonderful opportunity!" So what does this mean? It means that every one of us can be stubborn, impatient, angered and easily hurt. We all get angry at felt injustices. Yes, we’re human. PRAISE THE LORD! (I used to think being human was my only real problem, but the One who loves me into higher revelations has shown me that He created me to be human on purpose. Yes. On purpose.) We the weak ones were created to display His glory and strength. When we are weak (and human) He is strong and glowing; so all the better to be weak dear B-Marie. If you will embrace yourself as a weak human vessel He will be your supernatural forgiveness towards this woman, and your inner strength and glory. Yes, He will be all that in you regardless of her (or anyone else that comes along to trigger a human reaction). I’m not saying this will happen "all at once" or "soon" but it is surely a picture of the glory that’s creeping into every new creation in Christ!
The reason we spend so much time focusing on Him is to "recognize" Him again and again AS our life. What does that look like? It looks like Him coming through ‘surrendered’ human weakness to live His life. In the end His love will break all our pride and we will be all the more grateful and better for it
Georgia, you wrote: "The idea of "…All the people in the church that I respect and would consider their approval to be a good thing" is causing me to wonder, when is it a good thing to consider someone’s approval good? Should we ever care what someone thinks of us? I know I want my friends to like me and approve of me. Is that a Godly desire?
Your question is quite valid. God opens our eyes in stages as we continue to "take Him in." As we mature, like Paul, we will be less and less a respecter of persons.
Hey, you gals are truly amazing. I’m honored to be in fellowship with you and, Lord willing, will continue doing so.
Love,
Jaque
Living 'loved' by keeping myself in His love… Jude 21
Well, Jacque, you just set off an atom bomb in our little conversation about "proper" responses to someone judging us and misbehaving! Susan touched on this in the blog response in "You Can See Me":
It helps me to take a position of unconditional trust in God. I trust Him in me and in you; my position is anchored to my view of union. Trust gets easier when I see that He is the "all in all." If the words or actions of another cause me pain then my heightened sense of trust will find the good. A painful occurrence becomes the vital catalyst that spurs me toward necessary steps. These steps are hindered only when I judge the action (judgment severs trust) and lose sight of God’s bigger message. When He speaks through hurtful situations He may be asking me to repent, or to get over myself; He may be asking me to love hilariously or to set a much needed boundary; or He may even be asking me to courageously walk away from an abusive relationship. In any event, I can trust without condition that what is occurring is exactly what is needed to purify this vessel.
Trusting Christ remains a big key for me when it comes to forgiveness. It’s hard to be offended when I know that God has my best interest at heart. Trusting His goodness and sovereignty removes the rock of offense from my line of vision. As trust takes over my heart, my soul is cushioned with safety and rest. Trusting Him means trusting me and trusting me means trusting you and trusting you means trusting Him. All is well for God is good!
All this reminds me of the story of Joseph in Genesis when God used his brothers’ betrayal and false accusations and even being unjustly imprisoned to bring about His purposes not only for Joseph, but also for his entire family. It’s hard to get my mind around that much of God’s sovereignty! But then, that’s the point – its way beyond my mind’s ability to know or understand or reason!! So that brings me back to faith, and believing that God can handle whatever happens – no matter what. So rather than figure out my proper response, the best thing for me to do is talk to Him about it and ask Him what to do – just like we’re learning this week in the chapter on wisdom!
The beauty of staying in class with the Holy Spirit–enjoying a long-obedience-in-the- same-direction year after year after year is that IT WORKS.
It's really real. We really believe what we say we believe. The truth WILL set us free…no doubt about it. I want to shout it from the roof tops. God rocks!!!!!
It's so 'human' for humans to faint, fail and get down on themselves because of the terrible habit we have of looking more at ourselves then we do at God.
I recently took a golf lesson from a well known-pro who said, "Jaque, the secret to playing well is 'perfect practice'. "Yikes", I thought, "that's quite a bill to fill." I thought, "Gosh, if I could be perfect I wouldn't need to practice" but his remark triggered further consideration.
Showing up no matter what. That's perfect. Giving it all I've got to give. That's perfect. Using the tools I've been given to the best of my ability. That's perfect. Taking my BEST shot. That's perfect. Hmmmm. "Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." So I concluded that perfection isn't about always getting par or a birdie or an eagle. Perfection is showing up with the right mental attitude–the right heart. Staying teachable and putting your heart into everything you do. This, in my mind is what God means by being perfect AS your heavenly Father is perfect.(Although His perfection far exceeds anything I can imagine–ugh–I'm so finite! but I love me .
So in the end, if God has our whole heart we will have perfect practice and we'll see it work at serendipitous times, like when someone takes a shot at us like this woman did to B-Marie.
Take heart B-Marie…you win because God is your perfect heart!
Living 'loved' by keeping myself in His love… Jude 21
Jacque, this is amazing! It's like you were reading my journal today!! This is what I was talking to God about! Here it is, so you can see what I mean:
The scriptures were Isaiah 42:16 and 45:2,3.
Wow, God! I see that rather than me serving you, it is you who takes care of me, leads the way for me, and reveals things to me! Wow! You don’t need for me or anyone to serve you. You have everything you need in yourself. I, on the other hand, desperately need you!
Yes, Beloved, and the more fully you see and understand that, the better it is!
Lord, I’m starting to realize that I don’t know how to live my life united with you. I only know how to figure things out in my own mind and try to agree with you. I don’t automatically rejoice when trials come. I forget to take things to you to process and I try to figure them out for myself. I can’t make myself see from your perspective! I’m tired of being human! I’m tired of being dependant! Honestly, I would like to be able to take care of myself. I guess after all these years, I still don’t really want to need you. This is definitely separated thinking. But I do need you. I mess things up big time when I try to do them on my own. You are so gracious and merciful and loving and kind. How could I not want to offer myself as a living sacrifice? Part of me does – I know you have the words of life, and part of me doesn’t – I like being in charge of my life. Or I guess it’s the illusion of control – but it’s nice while it lasts, at times, I guess…
I’m filled with separated thinking and I don’t know how to get rid of it!
[Laughter] You can’t, my beloved. That’s why you need a savior. Like it or not. Don’t be embarrassed about this before me. I knew it was there the whole time! It’s better for you to see it so we can deal with it.
But God, I can’t fix it!
[Patient smile] Beloved, there you go again. This is what leads you to me! Come to me, beloved, and I will give you rest. I will not force my yoke upon you. You may freely take it or not. The choice is yours.
What kind of choice is that??? I can’t live without you! I’m co-dependent on you! You are my addiction!! I have to take whatever you offer just to live.
The choice is: choose life and live, or choose your own way and die. I offer hope, healing, restoration, love, joy, peace, and the opportunity to partner with me as I cover the earth with my glory. I will not leave you as you are, in your co-dependent, needy state. I will transform you to carry and reflect my glory. And you will say it was so worth whatever you had to let go of to be able to grasp the riches I have laid up for you! Your way brings sorrow and pain, as you have experienced. But even then I can turn those things around for your good.
Will you trust me, Beloved? Will you trust that I have good plans for you? I want the very best for you. Your ultimate purpose will be fulfilled as you step into the destiny I designed you for. This will bring the ultimate happiness and greatest joy. I have never failed you nor forsaken you nor rejected you nor betrayed you. When you hated me and blamed me for the results of sin, I loved you. I called out to you. I led you to where you could hear my voice and receive my words. And I have been leading you ever since. I love how you are drawing closer and closer and longing to learn of me and spend time with me. Now you are frustrated because you have come to the end of your natural ability to know me. But this is just the beginning!! You are now ready to take the leap of faith to my side of the chasm between my ways and your ways. Don’t try anymore. Just listen. Listen for my voice inside of you. I’m there, and I have been there for every decision, every appointment, and every thought. The kingdom of God is near you – it is in you!
Ok, Lord, you win. I surrender. I’m back to the place of being sweetly broken. I release that false self that is not the real me but tries to sound like me. The real me is united to you, loving you, trusting, clinging, and relying on you. Please help me walk this out! When I get up from here and do something else, please help me walk in the spirit and not the separated self.
Don’t be afraid Beloved. You are learning. Give yourself time to learn to walk. If you fall, it’s OK, I’ll be right there to pick you up. Keep on going, keep learning. This takes practice!
Jacque, I think you posted shortly after I wrote the above. Now, to the perfect practice!
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Can't you just picture the Potter with my mess of clay in His hands? ...Oy! She is just so stubborn!!! 
...of course, I know and am thankful that He handles me with Tender Loving Care. no matter how messy I get!]
You can’t, my beloved. That’s why you need a savior. Like it or not. Don’t be embarrassed about this before me. I knew it was there the whole time! It’s better for you to see it so we can deal with it.
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