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12:47 pm
June 16, 2009
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Jaque
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Hi Julie,
Please forgive my tardiness in answering; I've had visitors from out of state.
Julie, I too want you to see (find) it for yourself as well you should. Because you want to find it and are willing to seek it I trust you will. We are all in a process of recognition Julie. "Recognition" is one of my favorite words. Our progression in the ongoing revelation of Christ depends on recognition and after that it depends on our response. ("To as many as RECEIVED Him, He gave the power to become…" As we respond to what we recognize we continue to recognize more.
This verse stands out to me right now: "And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, WHO FILLS ALL THINGS EVERYWHERE WITH HIMSELF" Eph. 1:23. As we live our daily lives we often talk of Christ's overcoming power without regard as to how it comes or what it looks like. Julie, I want to recognize Christ not giving me power but being the power that rescues me time and time again–as being the power that fills all things everywhere with Himself.
To me the matter is more about what TRUST looks like than anything else. I see faith as that which TRUSTS the God who IS rather than the belief that He exists. He exists whether I believe it or not but it isn't until I TRUST His existence in me…until I am tested by trials and temptations only to find each one leads me to a larger experience of Him…that I really know what trust is.
As recognition of HIM increases in me I come more and more to trust the LIFE that lives me. I can no longer say He is giving me power but that He IS the all and all, and I can trust Him to be the essence of all that I am in each circumstance of life.
It's an ongoing "seeing" thing Julie where He alone opens the eyes of our hearts to recognition; a recognition that will never cease to increase as we continue seeking Him as our life.
Another way to say it; recognition ends every illusion of separation; He there and me here. Jesus's heartfelt prayer in John 17 is that this be so. "That they all may be one, [just] as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be one in Us,so that the world may believe and be convinced that You have sent Me. John 17:21 (AMP) (underline mine).
In answer to your question Julie, I believe you see well. I see no flaw in what you have shared and I don't think you have a block other than the fact that the enemy of Christ would block each of us from seeing further if he could, and the use of a new term could be a tool in his hand if we let it. But I also see that the Casme term is stirring something in those who don't want to miss who He wants us to SEE THAT HE IS in us. Satan doesn't like the term Julie, because it exposes him in his ongoing efforts to keep us in the illusion of separation. Religion is fine with him, but knowing the total truth that sets us free to the max is not.
Has this been helpful in any way? I would like to remain in dialogue if you so desire.
Love,
Jaque
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Living 'loved' by keeping myself in His love… Jude 21 |
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7:15 am
June 18, 2009
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kovalchekj
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Oh, that was repeatedly helpful, starting right off the bat with the word “recognition.”
At first, recognition doesn’t seem like the right word, because it implies that you’re identifying something or someone, in their appearance or characteristics that was previously seen or known, but so much of this really seems new to me. However, in Sunday school we’re studying 1 John 2:20-29.
Verse 20 NKJV says “But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.” (NIV says “you know the truth.”)
IN light of this, recognition becomes seeing outside what is already within. Lord, give me better words. God has put the truth in us, and through our Christian walk, He leads us through things that confirm/reflect/draw attention to that truth that He has placed within/written on our hearts, and we recognize that it is truth, because it has the appearance and characteristics of what we carry within us. (sounds a whole lot like your key in the attic analogy)
Mark Knoll, Professor of Christian History at Notre Dame wrote “The point of Christian scholarship is not recognition by standards established in the wider culture. The point is to praise God with the mind. Such efforts will lead to the kind of intellectual integrity that sometimes receives recognition. But for the Christian that recognition is only a fairly inconsequential by-product. The real point is valuing what God has made, believing that the creation is as "good" as he said it was, and exploring the fullest dimensions of what is meant for the son of God to "become flesh and dwell among us." Ultimately, intellectual work of this sort is its own reward, because it is focused on the only One whose recognition is important, the One before whom all hearts are open.”
You wrote: Another way to say it; recognition ends every illusion of separation; He there and me here. Jesus's heartfelt prayer in John 17 is that this be so. "That they all may be one, [just] as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be one in Us,so that the world may believe and be convinced that You have sent Me. John 17:21 (AMP) (underline mine).
If we really are permeated with the anointing/Holy Spirit/Christ in us, like the washcloth in the tub, we begin to recognize Him in us and in others and how He’s working around us, but we’re no longer opposing forces (my sinful nature trying to be like Jesus, but always at odds with His anointing, unable to do what I want when I want or not do what I don’t want.) If I am permeated with Christ, I am infused with Him and I [the egoic person who thinks, feels, and wills to distinguish itself from the selves of others (including God) and from the objects of its thought] no longer lives, but Christ [the Messiah, the anointed knowing of God] lives in me.
And, you’re right, I don’t want to be given the power of God or Christ. In this frail frame, what would I do with it, but harm myself or others. It would be like giving a child a Japanese Chef’s knife, you wouldn’t expect anything but for them to cut off their finger or stab somebody in the eye. But Christ moving and operating in me, God in control of the power, and me just surrendered and willing, in that I can see “Christ in me, the hope of glory.” And if the power, motivation and will are all His and I am surrendered to move with it, than it is Christ in me operating as me and functioning through this life that He has given me. And if God can not separate from Himself than, a succinct way I can distinguish His moving in my life from His moving in yours, in our conversations, in a way that gives Him the glory and honor and praise, would be to use a phrase like “Christ in His Jaque form” and “Christ in His Julie form.”
Thank you, Jaque, for your patience. I’m beginning to recognize what you’re saying. I wish I could type out my laughter. I am delighted,
julie
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2:34 pm
June 18, 2009
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SaraMcD
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YES! Yes, yes! You recognize it Juls! You see it, I am delighted too. Thank you for laying this out so well. This has been a wonderful thread to follow. In particular;
Jaque wrote: "A new way of speaking the truth will hopefully help usher us into a radical faith."
Julie wrote: "I am not Jesus, I am not God and I don’t think that’s what Casme means.
….In being a vessel of the anointing of God, I’m reassured that I’m not trying to take credit or glory. My concern, however, is that I don’t settle for a terminology that feels more comfortable, but will not allow for a true grasp of the essential reality that God wants for me.
….And if God can not separate from Himself then, a succinct way I can distinguish His moving in my life from His moving in yours, in our conversations, in a way that gives Him the glory and honor and praise, would be to use a phrase like "Christ in His Jaque form" and "Christ in His Julie form."
Juls, thank you for reminding me that I should not settle for a more comfortable terminology when this one is helping me grasp the reality that God wants for me! This is an important point and one that will help me stick to this when I try to help others understand it. You are right, Casme doesn’t mean that I am Jesus or I am God, it just comes across that way at first glance. It takes a lot of seeking and wrestling with it to realize what it does mean, and that is the beauty of this process and this community where we can do that together. I love that final paragraph accepting that "Christ in His Jaque form" or "Christ in His Julie form" is a succinct way of acknowledging Him in us and giving Him the glory. It’s really the same thing when we say ‘Christ As Me’ and ‘Christ As You’. Why has this given us so many problems?! It’s just a new way of saying the truth as Jaque said.
I think it gives problems simply because we want to say it in a way that clearly gives God the glory and clearly shows that we are not saying we are God but that God is being Himself in and through us.
Juls, you said that at first you hung in there simply because you trusted me and trusted Jaque’s heart. As each of us establishes Visionwriters communities by ministering with these materials, that is the key thing; that we establish trust with our integrity and humility and our love of God and our deep seeking hearts. Leading the original courses first, before this one will do that best. You'll find the same teaching in those of courses of course, just not as defined. My desire is to seek more and more of God as He reveals His mysteries to us little by little in the company of friends who want to seek for themselves in a safe environment. Some won’t and some will but the main thing is that we provide a place and a structure where that seeking can occur for whosoever will.
I have more thoughts to share, but that’s it for now! Thank you for blessing me so much with your words,
Love Sara
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10:26 am
June 19, 2009
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Jaque
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Hi Sara and Julie,
You two are amazing–so articulate! I love the fellowship with each of you.
FYI, I just spent around 40 minutes typing a reply and asking new questions to ignite discussion and when I went to post, the site had logged me out. So, I learn my lesson in hopes it helps any who try to post without typing it first in a word doc. Don't do it 
I'll be back 
Jaque
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Living 'loved' by keeping myself in His love… Jude 21 |
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10:43 am
June 19, 2009
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SaraMcD
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Oh Jaque,
I'm so sorry! I hope you can recapture what you wrote and write it again. I learned that lesson the hard way too. Now I use the copy function to save what I have written before trying to post. Then if it doesn't go through I can just paste it back in.
Please try again!
Love
Sara
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11:24 am
June 19, 2009
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SaraMcD
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A few other thoughts:
From Paul: "You received Christ Jesus, the Master; now live Him." (Col 2:10 Message)
From Oswald: "God not only expects me to do His will but He is in me to do it."
I often struggle to surrender and God is so faithful to talk me though it in my journals. In fact those times of my life are the ones when I am so completely sure and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am hearing the voice of God in my journals. He gets so specific and doesnt let me off the hook at all!
So often we get close to the flame but are too afraid of catching on fire. But it is that very fire that is the power and glory of God shining and living through us. We were made for this. Thats casme.
He tells me stubbornness is an unintelligent barrier that must be blown up with the dynamite of obedience…..ouch.
Another thought about the container, if we are a cup or container for the Lord…..we also need to drink the contents of the cup. When we drink it requires taking the contents into our entire digestive system and distributing them throughout muscles, bones, cells, nerves etc. We take something that is not us into our lives so that it becomes us and enters into our living. Same with the washcloth in the bathtub. Christ in us as us
I also see much from an analogy of a flowing stream. We often talk about going with the flow of God. When we are navigating rapids we need to be in the the flow of the deep water path through them, between the rocks etc that will be in the way.We have to tap into God,our inner source in order to be calm and tuned in and go with the flow, otherwise we panic and stick our oars in when we shouldnt taking us out of the flow and throwing the whole thing off balance. So, making our way through rapids is more intuitive than planned.God in us sticks the oars in when needed as long as we are completely tuned to him and letting him live through us.(I discovered it works once when I was in a regular kayak but I was in the ocean and I had to avoid hitting folks in the head who were playing in the waves! Instinct took over and I was amazed afterwards at how I automatically steered that thing correctly…and didn't even capsize.) I would love to live that way all the time and I believe that is what God is offering us.
Love you guys
Sara
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2:21 pm
June 19, 2009
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Jaque
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Hi Juls and Sara,
I’m back and a little less frustrated after losing my work this morning, so I’ll make an attempt to say it again.
BTW, you gals express yourselves very well; it is indeed an honor to be in dialogue with you about the use of the term Casme. I’d like to continue our discussion.
In an earlier post to you Juls, I said "To me the matter is more about what trust looks like than anything else. I see faith as that which trusts the God who is rather than the belief the He exists. He exists whether I believe it or not, but it isn’t until I trust His existence in me…until I am tested by trials and temptations only to find each one leading me to a larger experience of Him that I really know what trust is. As recognition of HIM increases in me I come to trust the Life that lives me… Indeed, "to live IS Christ"! So what would living in total trust look like? I believe it looks like scandalous freedom—like me trusting myself.
Believing that God exists is believing in a far away God who may or may not hear our prayers or care about our circumstances and concerns, but to trust that the very God of the universe lives in us through Christ—i.e., in my (your) desires, thoughts and actions, is a bold and seemingly dangerous belief; yet how can I (we) expect to live in victory without such a bold belief?
Until we as Christians recognize Casme we are robbed of experiencing constant victory; always asking but never receiving what we ask for because we ask amiss. How so? Scripture, saying that we are to "labor to enter God’s rest," also says;
Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.[ Heb 4:1-2 (NIV)
Could we then say ‘because those who heard did not combine it with trust.?"
How can we trust a far away God? But if He is as near as He says He is, how dare we not trust Him? (Of course we know God is both far off and near, for He fills everything and every space with Himself—Eph 1:23) Yet for enjoying a personal relationship we are concerned with His nearness).
So how can we trust Him unless He is (becomes in our recognition) the very trust we are desiring to express? Christ, being our life is our trust; now guess what I’ve discovered? He trusts me, not because of what I, in my humanness might or might not do, but because of who He is in me.
One of the most wonderful things I’ve found is that Casme is NOT AFRAID OF MY HUMAN MISTAKES! Therefore, trusting, neither shall I be. I know I will make more mistakes than I ever wish to, but I trust the One who lives me…I trust Casme to lead me to Total Truth as He turns my dunghills into gardens.
Julie, I absolutely love your last post and, at the last of it, felt I could actually hear your laughter.
Sara, at your reiteration of Julie’s phrase "I don’t want to settle for a terminology that feels more comfortable but will not allow for a true grasp of the essential reality that God wants for me" I found my own inward laugh of glee. This is true labor my friends and I believe such labor causes thousands of demons to flee!
Loved hearing your thoughts
Jaque
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Living 'loved' by keeping myself in His love… Jude 21 |
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2:43 pm
June 19, 2009
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Jaque
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Sara,
Indeed, that is what He is offering us.
I liked; "He tells me stubbornness is an unintelligent barrier that must be blown up with the dynamite of obedience…" This immediately makes me think about the fact that obedience is not 'my' independent performance as I used to think. "I" cannot produce obedience; it's not mine to give, but I can, through recognition and response (trusting surrender) watch as obedience flows through me back to God.
I keep hearing myself repeat the phrase as you've also heard; "There's nothing to do, just something to see." He is the Something. He is the Someone. Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith and TRUST!
Love,
Jaque
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Living 'loved' by keeping myself in His love… Jude 21 |
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