I never thought about God's presence even being in Hell before. I always thought the very essense of "hell" was the absence of God, therefore the absence of HOPE. Leaving the soul in the knowledge of a suffering that has no end, no "light" at the end of the tunnel.
I also just wanted to share how much I really love the song for this week!!
"Hell is what it is because of the effects of my presence on evil."
AND
"the glory of God would be a torment to them."
Both these statements contradict that which I have been teaching my sons: that what makes hell so bad is that He is not there. But if God is everywhere, why wouldn't he be in hell as well. And as I think about it it starts to make sense. What would make hell what it is if not the glory of God being revealed. I think so often I want to take all the "feel" good parts of God but none of the "bad" things that go along with God.
Can't wait to listen to this message!!!!! Bedtime come on, come on; lol.
I am greatful for the posts about God's presence in hell. This truth confuses me each time I hear it. The posts are giving me a peek into it's meaning but really they stir more ?'s in a good way. Does anyone have some good referances that say conclusivly that there are some other than satan that go to hell. It seems the more I learn of God's charactor the harder it is for me to understand that anyone of God's human creation ends up in hell. Not for the typical reason but because of the sufficancy of God & His ability to forfill His will. I know some of us pots were made for water & some for trash & who are we to tell the potter what we are made for. It just leave an open door to know more about God here. I had a conversation with a woman last night letting her know she could come to my house for Bible study if she wanted & one of her comments was how much can you study the Bible she feels she knows it inside & out. I just didn't have a response that wouldn't sound condesending so I was silent but I have to say now. Thank you God for allowing me to continually learn more about You, please never let me become hardend because You are the sweetest thing I will ever know!!!!!
Wow, the example of the trash and field of flowers really opened up my understanding a bit more concerning hell and God's presence. And how true that "Who God is, doesn't depend on man's choices." And as I sit here it is hard to imagine,now after discussing it, hell without God for if He weren't there He wouldn't be God?!?! Once again, I must confess that "I do not know what I think I know" but how blessed I am to have all my trust and faith in the One who does!!!!
@ Toni, when you speak of referrences are you wanting scripture or maybe books on this topic?? I was also wondering if you could clarify your statement a bit more concerning "people" going to hell. Is it your understanding that no one goes to hell or am I not getting what you are trying to say. I just don't think I am understanding what you wrote. Which isn't uncommon for me considering it took me until my adulthood to understand the simple joke: what is black and white and red all over. the red meaning read all over. yeah I'm a bit slow but hey that's okay, lol
I just typed this big long post and then accidentally hit cancel instead of post! Nice move, McFly!
Let's try this again… I find this discussion truly fascinating! It takes me to a new level of awe, when I try to understand the multi-faceted God we have! I've been really thinking about God in Hell, God not being able to coexist with sin, ect…and this is where I am at currently. (Subject to change without notice!) Without having gone back to review the entire conversation, I believe it was Brandy (forgive me if I'm wrong) that spoke of God's glory being torment to those in hell, thus explaining His presence. This seems to be the closest to making sense. Reading today's verses, I was reminded that how even Moses could not look upon God's full glory, in his sinful flesh.
Then I think about God's timelessness again. We tend to think about past events (Jesus on earth) and future events (Judgement Day)…and for us, that's true, but not neccessarily to God. So I wonder if sin is even present in hell? Sin was defeated at the cross. I take that to mean all sin was defeated…even those sins of non-believers. Those in hell/going to hell did not accept the Savior and the gift of enternal life, but the sin was still paid for none-the-less. (I think.) Hell is about consequences of sin & the consequences of choices we made…not the present act of sin. I don't think those in hell continue to sin.
So, in that line of thinking, God and His Glory could absolutely exist in hell. I picture fire. It can be a source of comfort and warmth or it can be a source of pain and anguish. To those who've ever burnt themselves know the act of gnashing teeth! The same burning flame can produce to opposite consequences.
So, this is where my journey of thought lead me to. Of course, keep in mind that I will have to use a calculator to post this message, so that explains how deep I really go.
Consequently, (I just had to use that word), when I ask the Lord about hell, He quickly and rightly put me in my place by answering, "Hell is not your concern. Keeping people out of it, is!" Woah! Yes, Father!!!
Belinda-Marie
now hit the right button this time!!!
You’ll never know Christ is all you need, until Christ is all you got!
I was asking for scripture references. I looked at some with my concordance. I was & am still left unclear. God's will is that none should perish or at least that is my understanding. I can't seem to find the actual reference for this right now. I have always held the belief that there are people who will spend eternity in hell, but have had a question mark around God's will being that none should perish. The more I get to know God the more I see that God's will can not be thwarted since He is completely sufficient to & does accomplish It. The concept of God being present in hell adds to this question mark. How can it be that some will go to hell then?
However, at this point even though "I don't know what I think I know" I am sure glad God does know what He knows & I am quite happy to leave this apple on the tree.
Toni, here is the verse I think you are referring to:
2 Pet 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
I think see your point: "if it’s not God’s will for anyone to go to hell, then how cold it happen?" But it’s not God’s will for anyone to sin either, and we know that happens! So I think the answer lies in the fact that God gives us a choice. We can come to him and be redeemed from sin, or we can keep our sin and the consequences that go with it. But we know that God is good and He is just, so whatever He does will be good and just! And I also think we’re not going to fully know and understand on this side of eternity.
1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
@ Belinda Marie, yes you reminded me of that which I see truth in too. That Christ has died for all sins, It is one of the first verses we teach our Cubbies: While we were sinners, Christ died for us 1 John 4:10. (You'll enjoy that as I said this I recited as I would to my sweet little ones, ha ha) I have likened this to a million dollar check before, if someone was to give me a million dollar check, it is a million dollars whether I cash it or not. The difference is when i cash it I see the benefits of having all that money in my account. Where if I just keep that check in my purse, its still a million dollars but it doesn't do me any good. That is how I put into a word picture our salvation. Christ's work is finished, all we need to do is accept it. Now if we chose not to accept it, it does not lessen His work it just does not benefit us!!!
@ all, So then I begin to ponder, why are we sent to hell? It can't be because we are sinners, if that were the case then even Christians would go to hell, right???? I see that it is when we don't accept Christ as our Savior and He cover our sins that it is the very holiness, perfectness, justness of God that puts us in hell. Here is a bit of what God talked with me about today:
"Brandy goodness is not something I do, it is Me. My glory will consume those who are not covered by the blood of Christ, not because I do not love them but in Me there is no other way. It is in my very holiness and perfectness that demands that sin be destroyed in front of Me. Do you think that I wither away in front of sin, do you think that I cower away from sin???? Absolutely not, it is sin that buckles under my presence not the other way around."
I see that discussions such as these are crucial for us to realize that sometimes we believe what we believe because that was what was taught to us and not because it is what the Word of God reveals!!!! I posted a question onto my fb profile and I am encouraged at some who have posted. I have not said my point of view yet as I hoping this will stir within some that have posted a desire to seek out God's word. FYI, one person that has replied is a Jew, another is someone who "believes" in Jesus but does not go to church, and another is one of Matt's cousins. Guess this might make for an eventful Christmas dinner conversation, lol.
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